Суд над Бхагавад-гитой / Attempt to ban Bhagavad-gita

Karl Marx



Śyāmasundara: The Hare Kṛṣṇa revolution.


Prabhupāda: Yes.


Śyāmasundara: He said that...


Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: [SB 7.5.31] "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Viṣṇu." Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam [Bg. 15.6]. When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."


Śyāmasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.


Prabhupāda: Yes. I can take it in this sense. If the Communist idea is spiritualized. So long the Communist idea will remain materialized, it is not final. We have got Communistic idea. Just like we believe... They believe that the state is the owner; we believe God is the owner. So this state is a small state, Russian state. They can be satisfied, but because it is wrong application... State is not the owner. Real owner is God. So from state, when they come to the conclusion, "Not the state but God is owner," then their Communistic idea will be fulfilled. And as they say that everything must be done for the state, we are actually teaching perfect Communism. We are teaching that Kṛṣṇa is the owner. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the supreme enjoyer. Everything is..." Just like in our society we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa because we know Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. Sarva-loka-maheś... He is the proprietor. So this Communistic idea is vague, but it can be perfected when they come to the conclusion, according to the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; He is the supreme friend of everyone. Then the people will be happy: "Oh, we have got a friend like Kṛṣṇa." Just like Arjuna was certain that "Kṛṣṇa is my charioteer. Oh, I am victorious." And it is confirmed, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ: [Bg. 18.78] "Where Yogeśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is there," yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ, tatra śrīr vijayo, "there victory and everything is there." So this is an idea. This idea can be welcomed provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state by God. Then it is...


Śyāmasundara: Well, that's pretty unlikely because they consider that reality is composed of what appears to our senses.


Prabhupāda: That is not reality. Then why there is revolution? If it is reality, then why it is being changed? So in this material world there is a vague idea, reality. Nothing reality. Everything false. Śaṅkarācārya therefore says, jagat mithyā: "It is false." There is no reality. What is reality? What is definition of reality?


Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.


Prabhupāda: Huh?


Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.


Prabhupāda: Well, your senses are not reality.


Śyāmasundara: And economic determination.


Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes... You are thinking "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?


Śyāmasundara: He says whatever is useful...


Prabhupāda: Useful, useful... So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?


Śyāmasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.


Prabhupāda: That's all... They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only the by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses.


Śyāmasundara: He says that if there is anything beyond the appearances, physical world, it is also physical, that everything is physical, everything is material.


Prabhupāda: That's all right. Physical... Even physical, you do not know. Even this physical manifestation of this universe, what do you know about this? You do not know. There are so many planets. You cannot go even in the moon planet.


Śyāmasundara: He says it's only necessary to know what applies to us, what...


Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of reality. Don't talk of reality.


Śyāmasundara: I only need to know that which is useful to me.


Prabhupāda: That use, it is for you but because your knowledge is so poor. Just like a low class man, he will think, "This police constable is government." Because he is a low class man, the police constable takes him to the custody, and he is controlled by the police cons..., so he is father and mother. But for a high personality the police constable is nothing. There are so many others. So this reality is relative according to the person. He is a man with poor fund of knowledge. Therefore immediate effective, that is reality. Just like child. He thinks a lozenges which is two cent worth, he thinks it is reality. But to his father that two cents worth lozenges... (aside:) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. To his father, he will think, "What is this lozenges?" The child will ap... "Oh, father, it is so nice. It is heaven. It is so sweet." That means reality according to the person... So he is a man with poor fund of knowledge; therefore he is accepting reality which is giving him some immediate profit. That's all.


Śyāmasundara: Yes. Just like he considers Kant's idea, "the things in themselves," to be "the things for us,"...


Prabhupāda: (aside) You can change that.


Śyāmasundara: ...instead of something existing in itself, that "everything exists for us and everything exists for my use."


Prabhupāda: Yes. The animal also thinks that "This is reality." "I have got one goat," a tiger thinks, "to eat. Oh, this is reality."


Śyāmasundara: This is just for me.


Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... These things are discussed in Upaniṣads. The students asks, "What is reality?" He says that "Think over." Now came, that "Eatables are reality," because he's a small child. So he says, "No, this is not reality. You think over." In this way, this way, one after, one after another, one after another, he finally came to Brahman. So this reality differs according to knowledge. Kṛṣṇa can... The same example: a child. Two things: one lugdoo and one one-thousand-dollar note—which one he will take? He will take this lugdoo. For him this is reality. He does not know the value of this paper. But for his father, which one of them, he can immediately... So reality means according to your knowledge. So these are poor class of men; therefore they are always talking of economic production and this and that, the immediate... That's all.


Śyāmasundara: In fact, when he says that what is practical is the criterion for truth, that is also relative, what is practical. Just like for the child the practical thing is the laddu.


Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. For a child the lugdoo is reality, but that does not mean that is equal to that one thousand dollar note.


Śyāmasundara: So we have to find out what is really practical.


Prabhupāda: Yes. No, practical, both things practical. But according to the person, the value is different.


Śyāmasundara: Oh. But isn't there an absolute value?


Prabhupāda: The absolute value is God. That is division (?). Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. That is our objective. We take in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The original source of everything." Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi: "I meditate upon the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth."


Śyāmasundara: And that is also practical?


Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Why not practical? Do you mean to say that you are, all Kṛṣṇa conscious people, you are after something impractical?


Śyāmasundara: Well, they will say...


Prabhupāda: They may say. What is your position? They may say.


Śyāmasundara: The practical thing is that it makes us happy.


Prabhupāda: Huh?


Śyāmasundara: The practical result is that we are happy.


Prabhupāda: So anyway, unless you feel practical, why you are after it? That is my proposal. They may say whatever nonsense they can say.


Śyāmasundara: So the practical result should be satisfaction, happiness.


Prabhupāda: Yes. You are eating, but somebody says, "What you are doing?" But by eating, if you feel satisfaction of your hunger, that is practical. You haven't got to take certificate from others. You are eating; if you feel satisfaction, if you feel strong, that is the...


Śyāmasundara: So these men, both of them, they have a great faith that philosophy can change the world.


Prabhupāda: And this is the real philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is real... What is the original source? This is real philosophy. What is that Absolute Truth? Everything is relative truth. What is the Absolute Truth? That is philosophy, Vedānta philosophy.


Śyāmasundara: That has social effects that could change the world?


Prabhupāda: Yes. This, our whole Indian, Vedic civilization, is standing on Vedānta philosophy. And Bhāgavata is explanation of Vedānta philosophy.


Śyāmasundara: So the source of everything is...


Prabhupāda: Everything is there, ideal.


Śyāmasundara: So that's all today. Tomorrow we will discuss Mao Tse Tung, the Chinese Communist.


Prabhupāda: Oh, Mao.


Śyāmasundara: Mao. (end)


Link to this page: http://prabhupadabooks.com/g=160830&page=2